Joss Whedon
May. 11th, 2021 10:18 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
plutherusBy now, we all know -- most of us at least -- that Joss Whedon is, what? Problematic? Not quite what he makes himself out to be? A steaming pile of shit?
A lot of people have known this for a while, of course.
Sadly, I was not one of them.
Back when Angel was on, I heard that Charisma Carpenter had some things to say about him. I didn’t know exactly what. There was no real way to look up precise statements like that. Google was still a fews years off from becoming an indexed search of all knowledge in the world. All I really knew back then was that Whedon and Carpenter had some disagreements that ended up with Carpenter leaving the show.
I still loved the show.
I loved all his shows. When my Firefly DVDs began wearing out from being watched too much, I looked up Buffy the Vampire Slayer, devoured that, and turned to Angel. I even watched Dollhouse.
I started hearing rumblings years later, and always I had some dismissive opinion of them. I was a fan, and rumors are easy to ignore. He’s not really a feminist. OK, well, that’s like, your opinion, man. He’s a creep toward all his female fans. Yeah? Well, it’s too bad that’s your impression. He cheated on his wife. A lot. OK, so he’s an asshole. That doesn’t mean he’s a racist, or a misogynist, or an abuser, right? (Right??)
OK, I reasoned, he’s not really a nice guy. I can still love his work, and think he’s a great writer. All these “attacks” are against the man himself, not against anything he’s written.
Except when they are.
I don’t like the way he treats all his female characters, a friend tells me. What are you talking about? They’re all empowered strong women. Uh huh. And every single one of them is some super powered waif who are still somehow under the control of the men around her.
No, can’t be. I mean, sure, Buffy’s got her Watcher, and Zoe is super devoted to Mal, and River… uh… wait, there’s Willow (Yes, Willow whose love interest was another woman. And how’d that turn out?) And, well, there’s Cordelia… Fred? Inara? Uh… Hm. There seems to be a bit of a pattern here now that you point it out.
But the banter! The tight plotlines! The depth!
Yeah, there is all that.
And then there was Ray Fischer’s statement.
And then there was Charisma Carpenter’s statement.
And those statements were all backed up, supported, within days, sometimes hours. Michelle Trachtenberg. Sarah Michelle Gellar. Marti Knox. Amber Benson. Jose Molina. More. Too many to ignore. Too many to draw any conclusion other than the obvious. (And, notably, while a few people have said “That wasn’t my experience with him” not a single person that I’ve seen has come out and said “That doesn’t sound like the kind of thing he’d do”)
What was I to think about all this? What was I to think about myself? I loved Firefly, more than almost any other show ever.
I had raved about Joss Whedon as a writer. If you had asked me which writers had the most influence on my own work, up through the end of last year I would put Whedon in any top five list.
I posted a long review on the first Avengers movie. It was glowing. Great script. Great story. Total suspension of disbelief. Superheroes fighting each other for perfectly legitimate disagreements, not mind control or mistaken identity.
When the good guys fight against each other in Yellow Tape and Coffee, you can still see the echoes of the fight of Iron Man against Thor.
What does it say about me, then, that Joss Whedon is such a horrible person? That he hurt so many people? That I was such a devoted Firefly fan for so long. Was, hell. Am! I’m playing in a weekly Firefly game now. Our DM is as big a fan as I am.
It took me a while to process my feelings of it all, with all these new allegations coming out. I can’t deny what kind of person he is. I had nothing to do with his shows. I’ve never met him, or any of the cast or crew, other than Jane Espenson at a con once. Nevertheless, I felt betrayed. Hurt. Angry. How could he do this to me?!
It’s not about me, of course. It’s about how a toxic person can get away with so much for so long and how somebody (me, but I’m not the only one) could let him. Could defend him for so long despite hearing what he was like.
How do I feel? Mostly guilty. I ignored what people were saying when I should have been paying attention. And part of that was because I felt personally attacked. I love Angel and if you’re saying it’s creator is a horrible human being, what does that say about me? That’s not a reasonable reaction. But it was the one I had.
But if more of the fans, myself included, had gotten angry back when Charisma Carpenter was first fired from Angel for being pregnant, if there had been enough of us speaking out then, perhaps some of the next couple of decades of abuse wouldn’t have happened.
So, there’s guilt.
Can I still enjoy his works? I honestly don’t know.
As for the game? I can enjoy that without thinking of Whedon. This is our DM’s third major Firefly campaign that I’ve been in. As she likes to point out, she’s now written more Firefly than Whedon did. This is her universe now.
As for the shows? Knowing what I know of him now, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to watch Dollhouse again. But it, and his other shows that I’ve loved: Buffy, Angel, Firefly, The Avengers? Those weren’t just him. There was an entire cast of actors, of crew, of directors, of other writers, who all went into making those shows what they are.
Maybe someday I'll be able to watch those shows again without getting angry about Joss Whedon. But, as they say, that day is not today.
A lot of people have known this for a while, of course.
Sadly, I was not one of them.
Back when Angel was on, I heard that Charisma Carpenter had some things to say about him. I didn’t know exactly what. There was no real way to look up precise statements like that. Google was still a fews years off from becoming an indexed search of all knowledge in the world. All I really knew back then was that Whedon and Carpenter had some disagreements that ended up with Carpenter leaving the show.
I still loved the show.
I loved all his shows. When my Firefly DVDs began wearing out from being watched too much, I looked up Buffy the Vampire Slayer, devoured that, and turned to Angel. I even watched Dollhouse.
I started hearing rumblings years later, and always I had some dismissive opinion of them. I was a fan, and rumors are easy to ignore. He’s not really a feminist. OK, well, that’s like, your opinion, man. He’s a creep toward all his female fans. Yeah? Well, it’s too bad that’s your impression. He cheated on his wife. A lot. OK, so he’s an asshole. That doesn’t mean he’s a racist, or a misogynist, or an abuser, right? (Right??)
OK, I reasoned, he’s not really a nice guy. I can still love his work, and think he’s a great writer. All these “attacks” are against the man himself, not against anything he’s written.
Except when they are.
I don’t like the way he treats all his female characters, a friend tells me. What are you talking about? They’re all empowered strong women. Uh huh. And every single one of them is some super powered waif who are still somehow under the control of the men around her.
No, can’t be. I mean, sure, Buffy’s got her Watcher, and Zoe is super devoted to Mal, and River… uh… wait, there’s Willow (Yes, Willow whose love interest was another woman. And how’d that turn out?) And, well, there’s Cordelia… Fred? Inara? Uh… Hm. There seems to be a bit of a pattern here now that you point it out.
But the banter! The tight plotlines! The depth!
Yeah, there is all that.
And then there was Ray Fischer’s statement.
And then there was Charisma Carpenter’s statement.
And those statements were all backed up, supported, within days, sometimes hours. Michelle Trachtenberg. Sarah Michelle Gellar. Marti Knox. Amber Benson. Jose Molina. More. Too many to ignore. Too many to draw any conclusion other than the obvious. (And, notably, while a few people have said “That wasn’t my experience with him” not a single person that I’ve seen has come out and said “That doesn’t sound like the kind of thing he’d do”)
What was I to think about all this? What was I to think about myself? I loved Firefly, more than almost any other show ever.
I had raved about Joss Whedon as a writer. If you had asked me which writers had the most influence on my own work, up through the end of last year I would put Whedon in any top five list.
I posted a long review on the first Avengers movie. It was glowing. Great script. Great story. Total suspension of disbelief. Superheroes fighting each other for perfectly legitimate disagreements, not mind control or mistaken identity.
When the good guys fight against each other in Yellow Tape and Coffee, you can still see the echoes of the fight of Iron Man against Thor.
What does it say about me, then, that Joss Whedon is such a horrible person? That he hurt so many people? That I was such a devoted Firefly fan for so long. Was, hell. Am! I’m playing in a weekly Firefly game now. Our DM is as big a fan as I am.
It took me a while to process my feelings of it all, with all these new allegations coming out. I can’t deny what kind of person he is. I had nothing to do with his shows. I’ve never met him, or any of the cast or crew, other than Jane Espenson at a con once. Nevertheless, I felt betrayed. Hurt. Angry. How could he do this to me?!
It’s not about me, of course. It’s about how a toxic person can get away with so much for so long and how somebody (me, but I’m not the only one) could let him. Could defend him for so long despite hearing what he was like.
How do I feel? Mostly guilty. I ignored what people were saying when I should have been paying attention. And part of that was because I felt personally attacked. I love Angel and if you’re saying it’s creator is a horrible human being, what does that say about me? That’s not a reasonable reaction. But it was the one I had.
But if more of the fans, myself included, had gotten angry back when Charisma Carpenter was first fired from Angel for being pregnant, if there had been enough of us speaking out then, perhaps some of the next couple of decades of abuse wouldn’t have happened.
So, there’s guilt.
Can I still enjoy his works? I honestly don’t know.
As for the game? I can enjoy that without thinking of Whedon. This is our DM’s third major Firefly campaign that I’ve been in. As she likes to point out, she’s now written more Firefly than Whedon did. This is her universe now.
As for the shows? Knowing what I know of him now, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to watch Dollhouse again. But it, and his other shows that I’ve loved: Buffy, Angel, Firefly, The Avengers? Those weren’t just him. There was an entire cast of actors, of crew, of directors, of other writers, who all went into making those shows what they are.
Maybe someday I'll be able to watch those shows again without getting angry about Joss Whedon. But, as they say, that day is not today.
